Kiki (K): Hello everyone, welcome back to Kartini Teknologi with Kiki and Galuh. We have another special guest with us as always, and I think I’m personally excited for this guest, I just learned about her recently, but I think her profile perfectly portrays how a Kartini Teknologi should be. So yeah I’m super excited to have more conversation and chat more with her today. Right, Galuh?
Galuh (G): Yes.
K: So yeah, I think without further ado let’s just give the floor for Veni Johanna, an engineering manager in Quora, so hi Kak Veni.
Veni (V): Hello.
K: Very excited to have you here today with us. So, would you like to give a short introduction for the listeners, maybe like where are you from and what are you passionate about?
V: Sure! Thank you for inviting me, it’s good to talk to you all today. So… my name is Veni, I’m an engineering manager at Quora. I’m now leadingmo the Platform organization which is basically a collection of teams that support the rest of the organization so that they can be productive. So I’ve been in the US for the past 9 years or so. I was raised in Indonesia, went to high school in Indonesia as well, graduated from there, went to Stanford University for bachelor’s and master’s, and then after graduating I started at Quora and then transitioned to become engineering manager three years ago. So… in terms of what I’m excited about, obviously I’m excited about technology, excited about women in tech, I’m also generally very excited about this area of knowledge sharing and thinking about how to basically share not only my knowledge but also people’s knowledge in the world more broadly. So we can talk about this more later but this is pretty consistent on a bunch of things that I do, including working at Quora, Indonesia Mengglobal, Indo2SV, basically these two are kind of side projects that I do outside of work.
G: Right. Talking about technology, let’s start with what makes you interested to learn about technology in the first place? Do you have any particular experience that makes you interested or makes you decide that you want to pursue it?
V: Yeah, so let’s see, I started using computers since pretty early, maybe about four or five years or so, and I remember liking to type and it’s really fun to learn to basically type quickly and write with all your fingers. So as a kid especially. After that basically a family friend suggested that I learn coding. For the first time I was in the 5th grade or so. I learned coding since pretty early and I feel pretty lucky to do that. At the time I just didn’t have anything to do, I just had a lot of free time, and because she heard that I like typing and I like playing some games, and she was like, “well if you learn how to code, you can kind of make something instead of just using it.” I thought that’s very appealing. And after I started trying it out, it’s just something that I find really fun because it’s something that I do outside of school, so there’s a lot of kind of exploration that I can do, I can do a lot of things just by myself, and it just seems very freeing if that makes sense. So I think those kind of experiences, those kind of trying out different things using coding very early on is something that kind of kept me going.
G: So I’m curious that you mentioned you learned coding at an early age. Now we have websites like Codecademy and other websites if we want to learn how to code. But back then I imagine it must have been pretty difficult to come across resources on how to code. So how did you learn how to code when you were young?
V: Yeah, again, I have a lot of time in my hand at the time. So basically there was a couple of different things. I asked my parents to go to the nearest bookstore, and then we got like two or three different books, and then I just kind of learned by reading a bunch of those books. So that’s why… I also enroll myself in some classes, nearby classes, that was also really fun despite the fact that they didn’t let me join because I was too young, because the other people were much older. But my parents kind of convinced them that they think I can follow along the lessons, so they let me and that also turned out to be fun. But I think those two things in combination work out, because I think if it’s just classes, I think I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as I would if I were exploring it in my own time.
G: So during high school, you were the first female delegate to represent Indonesia in the International Olympiad in Informatics, right? So what was the experience like and how did that experience eventually shape your career right now?
V: Yeah, so… actually I think that this experience in many ways shapes my career and how I become a software engineer until now. I feel like I do other things that seem difficult, but I still think that this experience was probably the most difficult, because basically at the time I was just starting to code, so I didn’t have the confidence in myself about being able to code. So… I remember at the time there has never been a woman who basically represents Indonesia to this competition, and it’s a very… challenging process basically. It’s a challenging selection process, because you have to get a medal in the national olympiad, and after that you have to go through three or four different selections, and only the top three our four people, four high schoolers basically in Indonesia each year can make it to the competition. So… basically it’s a very challenging process, I learned a lot along the way. I think first of all because it’s very challenging and it has… we have coaches, which is basically university lecturers and teachers, I learned a lot about programming that way, so that kind of helps me a lot in terms of building my skillset. Number two, it introduced me to a lot of really, really good people. Many of them now are either CTOs or leads in many other tech companies as well, so being around really good people very early on help me kind of motivate myself to learn more as well as learn from them as well. And finally, I think as a woman in tech, I become very used to being one of the very few women in this very male-dominated world, in a way that is very extreme. Just to give you a sense, the International Olympiad in Informatics is usually 300 students from all around the world, and typically there’s only 10 to 15 women. So that’s like 1 in 30. And similarly, basically the Indonesian team by the time it’s the top 30 in Indonesia, usually only 2 or 3 women. By the time it’s the top 16 it’s usually 1. Basically I spend two or three months as the only female competitor among like 15 guys. Which… is something that is a difficult experience in itself, but you can imagine that after going through that for multiple months, after that it’s like… it’s not so much of a problem for me being in a male-dominated field. So… I think this experience really taught me a lot.
K: You mentioned about challenges and women in tech, industry, so… I wonder do you think that it’s still difficult to be a woman in the tech industry? Or how is that transition process until you get used to it?
V: First of all I don’t want to generalize, people’s experiences are very different. But I think for me what I experienced was I think it was difficult to get to a stage where I feel confident in my ability or know how to handle my emotions when I don’t feel confident if that makes sense. Because if you have not got to that stage, this insecurity can really hinder a lot of the things that you do. I think it’s difficult to get to that stage, but once you get to that stage, I actually think it’s somewhat easy to be a woman in tech, because there’s a lot of opportunities in this field. Especially now these days people are very aware of this gender disparity and wants to do their part in improving that or encouraging that, which is not the case, I would say, a number of years ago. But I think now it’s definitely a much better environment. But I think especially for girls who are just starting out, I think it might feel a little bit difficult or maybe a bit of insecurity until you get your stride.
K: So I think let’s switch a little bit to your education background. So you did mention you did your bachelor’s and master’s in Stanford, right. Is there any particular topic or technology that you focused on during your study there?
V: Yeah, let’s see. So in bachelor’s I focused on systems, so I basically took a lot of operating system classes, compiler classes. In master’s I focused on information systems, so this is related to information retrieval and things like that. But to be fair I did not do any research during my time in Stanford, I basically spent most of my summer time working in the industry. So at Stanford you’re not required to either do research or be very focused in one area—in fact they actually really value people taking classes outside of computer science as well. I also spend quite a bit of time getting a minor in history as well which I really enjoyed as well as doing study abroad program. So I think these things end up being very useful for my career in addition to the CS classes.
K: You also did internship at Facebook and I think it’s 2011 as well as Quora 2012 and 2013. Do you still remember your experience getting into the tech industry for the first time and how did your internship experience help you in your career?
V: Yeah so the first time trying to get a job in Silicon Valley was not easy, so at the time I was a freshman, freshman meaning first year of college. Basically I did not have any experience at all, I just applied to a lot of companies. But I think one thing that surprised me a little bit was they’re actually very open to people with no experience, because there’s a lot of program that you can apply to to do that. Basically without any experience I got quite a few offers in the beginning as well which was really exciting—Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, and a bunch of other places which I forget now. It’s been a while. But the first time being in the tech industry is really interesting. It’s not only my first working experience, it’s also my first year in the US, right? So there’s a lot of things that I learned there, so basically in terms of engineering it’s about code quality, working in a big system, navigating the code base, whereas in high school it was all about algorithm and coding, right? In the industry it’s not about algorithms anymore, it’s about real-world systems which is extremely different ways of thinking. And then in terms of the non-technical part it’s also about how to communicate and collaborate with other people, how to ask questions, how to debate, how to disagree… especially in the US that’s really important, like if you just code and focus on your own thing, you will not be growing and developing in your job basically. So you really need to be proactive. And it’s something that was very difficult in the beginning.
K: Let’s move on to another area, which is your role at Quora. So we actually from Kak Alanda that you joined Quora at a very early stage. I think like among the other Silicon Valley tech companies, how did you decide to join Quora? What makes it interesting compared to the other giants there?
V: When I first came to the US I always thought I wanted to go to big companies like Facebook and Google which everyone knows. When I came to Stanford it was very surprising at the time that basically the cool thing to do was to go to a mid-sized company or small company instead, partly because you can have more impact in terms of what you do, you can learn more, but at the same time the quality of the people on average if you can find a good mid-sized or small company is also higher. That’s what people say. That’s why on my second internship I tried to find a small company. In terms of finding a small company I asked around about the quality of the engineering teams. That’s how I knew about Quora. So… I heard about the company from many, many people and the mission really fits me really well. The mission of Quora is to share the world’s knowledge, and that’s something that I basically agree with and I really want to see it happen. So that’s part of the reason why I ended up going to intern at Quora. I decided to come back because I realized those things I heard from other people were true, like being in a mid-sized company really do help me learn a lot and the culture also fits me really well.
G: So in Quora you also led the cross-team engineering efforts in internationalization. Can you tell us more about how Quora does that in the technical level?
V: Sure. So basically for context this means that we want to grow internationally, so initially Quora is just in English, so we want to open up a new product in Spanish. So now nearly 17 languages I think, before we just have one. So… basically there’s a couple of parts, number one we need to translate the product, so instead of showing things in English, we need to show it in other languages. So that means the engineering side basically deciding what the API for translation will look like, how that would be integrated to our translation system on the backend as well as how to do localization system itself. So those are kind of high level. What’s difficult about doing this at Quora is we have continuous deployment system and post-push review, which means that we actually deploy code like 100-200 times a day, which is a lot considering that our engineering team is very small. So basically we always have deploys and releases going on all the time. In many companies, whenever you want to translate something, then you cannot push because you have to wait for the translation to come in. So this is something that will not work out with Quora systems, so… making continuous localization work along with the continuous deployment is one of the biggest challenges. That’s on the translation side, on the product side we also build different silos which is basically different versions of Quora but connected in many ways. So we have to basically revisit a lot of our schemas in various databases in order to allow that, so that requires big migrations on many different teams.
K: I think 2017 you’ve been promoted as an engineering manager, like your role right now. Can you broadly explain what is your responsibility at your current role?
V: Yeah, so first of all basically when I became an engineering manager I transitioned and not promoted. In Silicon Valley basically we have a parallel ladder for ICs and managers, so ICs can have the same level as managers as well, so when someone transitions to managers, typically they don’t get promoted. I think that’s very apt, because the responsibility is just so completely different. So the way I look at engineering management role, there’s various parts of that, one is basically deciding the vision of the team, which is aligning with the rest of the organization as well as what the team does. Two, building a team that is engaged and productive, making sure that the team is giving us much output but also have a good retention so we can continue to function well. So those are two parts, three is making sure that the technical output is good, which means that overseeing technical decisions that are happening within the team, and number four is contributing to organizational aspects of Quora, so this would include processes, work within the team as well as the engineering teams, hiring as well.
G: Something that I often hear about transitioning from IC to managerial position is that there are people who say that when they’re in a managerial position, sometimes they miss coding because they can’t spend as much time to code. Is this also a problem for you, or… what’s your take on that?
V: Yeah, a little bit. I don’t code anymore—I code maybe once every three months or so, unfortunately now. I code during just the hack week. But… I think my take of it is that, as engineering manager, the most important part of your role is making sure that your team has the output that is good. And the way to do that is different depending on the team you’re part of. There will be teams in which yes, the engineering manager should code in order to get the output that’s necessary. On some teams that’s not the case. For me if I’m spending my time coding that means… coding is basically not the highest ROI usage of my time, so… if I’m doing that then it’s actually pretty irresponsible for me. So anyway, I miss it a little bit, but not as much as I thought I would, maybe because I think over time I learn about what the value of my job is, if that makes sense, and it’s something that I take a lot of pride on as well.
G: Alright, so… I think engineering management is also a very interesting topic because it happens that some of my friends are also transitioning from IC to managerial position and we’ve been discussing a lot about this and there are a lot of questions that we still wonder about, so it would be very interesting to hear your perspective on these. How was your transition from an IC to engineering manager for you? Was it easy, was it difficult? And what did you learn from the entire process?
V: It was easier than I initially thought. I feel partly because I already did subsets of the roles … subset of the engineering management roles before I transitioned. I think that’s pretty key to having a smooth transition so… just to give you an example, I already mentored quite a few people before and I already took management responsibilities on some of them before. So for example it’s easy to mentor someone technically, but it’s more difficult to kind of “manage” someone so that they can change… they can align them better with your organization if that makes sense. It’s a different type of mentoring than just mentoring technically. Or mentoring someone to change culturally and change their attitude which is different than mentoring someone technically. I’ve had a couple of these in the company which helps. I’ve also been a tech lead of a pretty large project, which means that there’s a lot of coaching aspect as well as overseeing and project management aspects that I already have. So that was also very useful. I was also already used to basically splitting my time a lot and not coding as much so that’s also something that is useful as well because as an engineering manager you just shift your focus all the time, and I saw now how many new managers who made a switch from a completely pure IC role find difficulties in that type of juggling of responsibilities. So anyway, I found that it was easier than I thought it would, but still somewhat difficult. One thing that I found useful was reading this book called The First 90 Days which is a really good book on transitioning to any new role. I also have a learning plan on what I do and not do in the first thirty days, 60 days, 90 days, so that also helps a lot. I also find it’s useful to set expectations with my managers about what I do and what I don’t do, because otherwise there’s just so many information that I need to grasp. One other thing that I find really useful looking back is when I transitioned to management I immediately managed two teams at the same time, which is a very different situation than many other people, and I think it’s very useful because as a manager, I immediately kind of learned to not have just one way of managing, but thinking in terms of more high-level in my style. So… I think that’s also very good learning now, because it would have been very easy for me to manage one team and think that this is what management is, but that would be… it would be more restrictive basically for my future career in management.
G: Is there any difference between managing ICs and managing other managers?
V: Yes. A lot of differences. So… I started managing managers last year, so technically level wise I’m a director level, also managing two managers. The biggest difference between ICs and managers is that when you’re managing ICs, you’re coaching them how to do things. You’re coaching them how to problem solve. But when you’re managing managers, you’re coaching them to coach someone else. So… that means that your advice and what you say would have to be much higher level than what you say to an IC, does that make sense? Because it needs to be a framework, something that can be applied to multiple people. So… so that means that if I’m talking to an IC I can say, “maybe you can do X”. If I’m talking to a manager, I might be saying, basically, how to get to the root cause of a problem and how to think about solving them. So the manager can be doing the coaching himself or herself. So that’s a very different way of either talking or thinking, so that’s something that I’m still getting used to as well. I actually find myself, as I’m going through this, is that I started talking in a higher level sometimes and more vague, because basically this difference of managing ICs and managing managers.
K: I think from what you said, it seems that an engineering manager really has skill of people management. And so I wonder if you actually do any training when you take this engineering management role, maybe something like a people management training or something?
V: Yeah, so the company does provide me some people management training. But really most of the training comes from my manager basically because there’s a lot of things about management that is very situational. It’s very easy to provide, like, rules but at the end of the day it’s very situational, it’s about what this individual thinks, what this project means, things like that. I think the most important part is consulting with my manager. One thing that I found useful is also just reading a lot of books. There’s a lot of pretty bad management books out there, but at the same time I find it very useful to just read a lot and at least has them in the back of my mind so I can apply them in situations.
K: And you mentioned about hiring, and I was wondering what quality that you usually look in people when you hire for your team?
V: Yeah, the common one is values alignment, so basically alignment to the company values. So that’s really important especially for a small company like Quora, because we are like a hundred engineers or so, serving three hundred million monthly unique, so that’s a lot of responsibilities for individuals. So Quora’s has a set of company values and we make sure to look for them during hiring. So that’s one. And the second one is, strong technical background and skillset. So it depends. So for new grads, we typically look for strong algorithms, strong coding abilities… for experienced hires we typically look for basically a very specific skillset that they have. So for example maybe data infrastructure or maybe machine learning or [inaudible] infrastructure. So those are some very specific clues. But I think the values for these is extremely important and probably even more important than the technical part.
K: So talking about teams, what do you think are the things that you need to do to develop the strength of the people in your team?
V: So there are two parts of growing someone’s strength. Number one is detection and definition of the strengths, and the second part is alignment to the company. So let me go through the first one first. So a lot of people, I noticed, don’t really realize their strengths and weaknesses as well as what they can potentially do in the future. As a manager, it’s a really big part of my job to basically be very observant about what my reports do, don’t do, and how they do those things. So that we can help uncover together what are their strengths and how they could potentially build on those strengths for their future career. So… based on these strengths typically there would be conversations about future potential path as well as future career goals basically of each of the individuals. And then… the second part is, aligning those career goal conversations as well as the strengths of individuals to what a company needs and provides. So this is actually oftentimes very tricky, because there might be cases in which what would be good for someone’s growth might not be directly beneficial to the company. So it’s really important part of my job to basically align what individual needs as well as what the company needs, so this is in terms of finding the right opportunity for people to grow their skills, their strengths, and improve their weaknesses and whatnot with opportunities that can let them do that. Sometimes it might mean the right projects, sometimes it might mean finding the right people for them to grow with, sometimes it might mean finding new responsibilities or new areas for people to be exercising. And finally it’s really important to give people a lot of feedback, so that they can continue improving quickly. Because if this feedback loop is too infrequent, then people’s growth will also be slower than what it could be like. So there are also a bunch of tactical things that we can also do to grow someone’s strengths, after we already do the three things I already mentioned before. But I feel like in most cases these tactical things are pretty easy to think about. So for example, if someone wants to code debugging, just set them up with a senior engineer that they can program with. If someone wants to grow in one particular engineering area, then maybe you can send them to conferences or provide some budgets so that they can go to some course. So these tactical things are usually easier than detection as well as alignment to the company.
G: So you mentioned about feedback. What do you think makes a good, constructive feedback?
V: First, it should be prompt. It should be given as fast as it happens. Second is… I have to have a sufficient context about what happened as well as why this feedback is relevant, and things like that… three, ideally, it could be direct, so in general I value direct culture within the team, so… if I can encourage the person to someone else to give them feedback directly, instead of going through me basically, that’s also ideal as well. And finally it should be actionable ideally, but at the same time there are types of feedback that is not immediately actionable, but something that’s good for someone’s awareness, so I think those kinds of feedback should still be given but with moderation. And finally it’s important to have trust among all of this because really, feedback could easily make things either worse or not very helpful if you don’t have relationships that are based on trust.
K: Interesting. So I think like trust, feedback is what makes a culture in a company right? So our next question is how do you build a culture or enforce Quora’s culture within your team?
V: Yeah, so first of all in the company level there’s a set of values that we really care about. So this is something that actually gets repeated a lot, so… it could be through performance reviews, things like that. We repeat these values over and over again, and we make it clear that we value these in individuals. So this is really important that I try to embody those values whenever I can, because it’s really important that I lead from examples too. So for example, if one of the values is mission-first, which is putting the company’s mission first instead of my own personal interest basically, it’s something that I should embody first before asking other people. That’s one. Second is making sure that people are talking to each other and actually communicating directly, so… that I can achieve by basically encouraging people to just give feedback to each other basically, and communicate directly instead of always having me as this intermediate step, so that’s also very important. Calling out bad behaviors when I see it is also very important, usually not a very comfortable, but it’s also very important because people need to know that behaviors against our values and culture is not okay.
K: Okay. Well, let’s switch to another topic, which is… which I’m especially excited to talk about, which is mentoring. And I think I’m super excited to know more about Indonesia Mengglobal, so can you tell us more about that? Like what is the goal of the program and why you created it in the first place?
V: So, yeah, Indonesia Mengglobal is a project organization that I co-started with a friend about seven years ago. Wow, it’s been a while. Seven years ago now when I was in school. Basically the idea is that we want to share more information about how to get to universities abroad and how to either study or work abroad basically. Because especially at the time we felt that there’s a lack of good information out there about how to do this, so… I feel very fortunate myself that I have siblings who have been to the States, so I know about some of this. But I feel like if I don’t, there’s probably no way I would have been [inaudible], so I feel like there’s a lack of information out there, and with better information, people can basically go and study abroad as well. Anyway, so that’s basically the motivation. So we started with a presentation at an event at @america back in 2011 or 2012. We basically invited a bunch of guest speakers, students to come here to talk about what it’s like to study in the States, how do you apply, how do you write a personal statement, things like that… how do you get scholarships. So… it was attended by a lot of people, so it seems like quite a lot of interest. So that’s why we started with a blog. We felt it’s an easy way for us to basically reach a lot of people with minimum amount of time. And because we’re all in the States, it’s a way for us to basically reach a lot of people without being in Indonesia as well. So… we started with a blog and then we then continue to have more events, and then now we also have a mentorship program which we actually started about five years or so. Where we basically match individuals to a mentor who typically has been to a university abroad basically. And then they would get one-on-one mentorship in person—how to apply to these colleges, they can get their essays reviewed, they can learn how to do the tests for example. And things like that. So… anyway, so the organization is doing quite a bit to basically have people to study abroad.
K: So that means that Indonesia Mengglobal is, like, connecting people who have a dream about going to school in the States or work there, so is there any interesting experience from its members that you have heard?
V: Hmm, maybe not so interesting, but because the program has been around for a number of years now, then it’s extremely rewarding for me to see a lot of success stories, so… we have people who now study at Stanford for example [inaudible], and then became mentors themselves, so we have people who used to become mentees now become mentors. I still talk sometimes with my mentee from a number of years ago, and… it’s just extremely rewarding to see how much they’ve come. So… I think this is the good part of 1:1 mentorship programs in general because you can really see the impact to an individual compared to when you do something in writing or something where you don’t actually the person, but when it’s one-on-one, you can really feel proud and rewarded to see how much your time can really benefit a lot of people.
K: So I think there’s gonna be a listener that is very much interested to know like how to apply to the mentorship from Indonesia Mengglobal, so can you explain a little bit more about how they can apply to the mentorship?
V: Sure, so it’s a yearly program, you can check indonesiamengglobal.com to see when it will happen. Usually it happens around May, so maybe now it’s already closed, but it happens every year. So… the website is indonesiamengglobal.com, even though the mentorship program might be closed, you might be able to just learn a lot from reading a bunch of the writings that’s already on the site.
K: So I think it relates to Indonesia Mengglobal, let’s talk about mentoring. Why do you think it’s important? I just see from earlier, I think you seem really passionate about mentoring people. So why do you think it’s important?
V: I think it’s… It’s a really nice way to pay it forward. I think like in many ways of a lot of people mentored me, and mentored maybe you two as well, so maybe mentoring is a good way to pass it along to other people, so I’ve been a part of both the Indonesia Mengglobal mentoring program and Indo2SV which is basically a program to mentor Indonesian people who want to intern in Silicon Valley. So… I’ve done that with two girls, and basically like seeing them go to intern at Google, become a full-timer at Google, is a very rewarding experience, because I can clearly see the impact on them. And I think the impact is not just on them, but also other people—Indonesians can also go to Silicon Valley, go to Google and things like that. There’s a lot of impact that can happen there. For me as well I think it’s a good… explaining something to someone helps me kinda crystallize the concepts better as well, and helps improve this communication skill a little bit as well. I’m kind of now in the middle of, like, Bahasa Indonesia and then English, so… just talking a lot in one of the languages helps me to improve in general.
K: And I’m also curious like what is your style of mentoring? Which I think not everyone can mentor or coach people, right? So what is your way of mentoring people?
V: Yeah, I think people have different styles here. I typically would set a high standard. I’m not someone that, even as a manager too, I’m not someone that can baby people around and be okay with people who are lazy and whatnot. It’s really important for us to align on that expectation, so we can both put our maximum effort into it if that makes sense. Instead of having this very lax relationship that might not be as fruitful. I think that’s one, and second is having a clear line of communication, like how they can reach me, how they can ask questions and things like that… what type of questions they could be asking, having good relationship with trust, I think it’s really important that they know that I just want the best for them. So basically I’m doing a lot of things out of the best intention, that’s probably the most important.
K: Last question, any important message for the listeners? Like, what do you say to people that want to pursue a tech career?
V: My main advice would be to find a really good support system for your professional life, this could be a trusted friend, this could be a manager, this could be a mentor… basically someone that you trust and have your best intention in mind. This person can give you a really good feedback about things that you do professionally. And can encourage and push you to do things that you might not feel ready to do. There might be times at least in my life where I felt that I wasn’t ready to take on new responsibilities, take on a new job, and having a very supportive manager or mentor that knows you really well and knows what your potential and believe in it would really go a long way for you and I to grow our career. Along with this, whenever you look for jobs, try to also optimize for good management in that company, or if you have the opportunity to do so, get to know your future manager, and see if this person is someone that can really vouch for you as well as help you in your future career.
K: Alright so I think that wraps our conversation for the day, so thank you so much Kak Veni for the discussion. So yeah, see you on the next episode!